In this episode of the Cherryleaf Podcast, we talk to Michael Andrews about metadata, and his new book “No More Silos: Metadata Strategy for Online Publishers”:
This is the Cherryleaf Podcast
The normal way in which seems to have been a tradition so far in the way that we’ve done the interviews on the podcast is just to jump straight in, and ask people to introduce themselves say who they are and what they do so.
I’m happy to do that so thank you so much for inviting me to talk to you it’s been quite a while that we’ve we’ve had interactions on social media and it’s good to be able to chat a special about a topic I really care a lot about, which is metadata.
And we’ll get into what that is in a moment, but I’ll just introduce myself Michael Andrews and I’m a Content strategist currently I’m living in India.
Although I’m from the United States originally and really work with companies of different sizes, helping them to plan and deliver online content to audiences.
And as part of that one of the areas I’ve become very interested in is a topic called metadata, and so that I think is something we’re going to be talking about in our conversation here.
And you’ve also recently or maybe not quite so recently, at the start of the year, published your second book, which is “No More Silos: metadata strategy for online publishers”, and we’ll ask you a few questions about that, which is on it’s on Amazon. I guess it’s elsewhere.
You can get it, yeah, you can order the book through Amazon.
Yeah and it’s a really really good book.
I read the book having had it on the bookshelf in my backlog for about three months, and then I thought that would be brilliant topic to to cover on the podcast ,and as you said we’ve we’ve swapped messages on Twitter and elsewhere for a good while.
So it’s a good good chance to to speak to each other.
OK, well let’s start with for the basics then.
What is metadata?
So it’s a term that sounds may be a little scary.
It’s not a term that we use in our everyday conversation, and since I know your podcast is appealing to people in the communication field, I’m gonna try to talk about this without using jargon as much as I can.
But if I do use jargon you know you can wave of yellow card at me, and I’ll try to stop doing that.
But metadata, if we try to unpack that term, it means information about other information.
And you think well, so what what’s the big deal about that?
And really what it does is it provides different audiences the ability to understand what content is about without actually reading the content.
So when I say different audiences, I mean there might be someone who’s just scanning and browsing and trying to find if there’s some content that’s relevant to them, and they don’t want to have to read through all the content to find out which piece of content is relevant to them.
Or it may be a computer system is another kind of audience
We don’t really think of creating information just for the benefit of computers, but really the computers are just an intermediary that allows the information to be delivered to humans.
And when one uses metadata, it allows the information to be distributed across different kinds of platforms and be available to different people in different contexts.
So just even example you and I are talking as part of a podcast, you distribute this podcasts through different platforms. Maybe you load it up on iTunes or some other podcast distribution platform now.
A podcast uses a standard called RSS.
It’s just a way that the information about the audio file is described and distributed.
And there are certain kinds of information that is expected when you’re talking about a podcast.
You know you want to know what series podcast belongs in, you want to maybe have a title for the episode, perhaps a description of the episode, things like that.
And those elements are metadata, that basically is information about the podcast, the podcast being the content.
And there you have information describing the content, and that makes it useful for people as they’re looking through a list of podcasts, which podcast I want to listen to today.
And they see the description, and they see ones on metadata, and they say OK, that sounds interesting. I’ll listen to that.
So that in a nutshell is how it works.
Why is it important to have information about information?
Who benefits from having that metadata attached to a piece of information?
So everyone benefits.
I mean that’s what I think is so magical about metadata is that the publisher benefits, because if you are creating content that you want others to read, the metadata makes your content much more discoverable to people.
It helps to make the content more widely distributed
So if I put some metadata, if I write a blog post and I attached metadata to it. I might attach something called Open Graph metadata, which is used by a lot of social media platforms like you know Facebook or LinkedIn. You know a number of them use this, and that allows that blog post to be visible on their social media platforms.
Someone can see a brief description of the article, and if it’s enticing enough to them, they can click on the article and read it.
So it helps a lot with the distribution aspect.
Similarly, there’s other kinds of metadata that are used say on for social search engines, and this provides the content to be visible on search engines from the publishers’ point of view.
It’s making the content more widely distributed, more widely visible to people.
And then on the audience side, the people who are looking for information, they can find the information that much more easily.
They can make choices about what information they want to pay attention to.
And one of the big things that is not really appreciated about metadata is that it helps people answer questions.
So we all know that everyone has, you know, more content that they want to listen to, or watch or read, than they have time available, you know ,because there’s just a lot of material out there that’s potentially of interest to people.
But we have limited time, so we have to prioritize as as individuals what we’re going to choose to look at or read or watch, and the metadata helps with the prioritization.
So the metadata really highlights some of the key factual information that’s associated with the content.
Let me give you an example if I can.
So if I’m interested in choosing a restaurant to go eat at tonight, I could read some restaurant reviews and it all might be very interesting, and it sounds like a nice place.
It describes the atmosphere of the restaurant, and maybe describes some signature dishes that the restaurant has, and I’m all really interested in this restaurant, but ultimately, no matter how interested in, I am based on the content.
I have a few questions that I need to have answered probably before I make a decision about whether to eat at the restaurant.
So like you know, what hours are they open, or what kinds of payment do they accept, where are they located, you know. Are they near public transportation?
These sorts of things are my decision criteria that I have, and I apply that as a filter for whether or not that this restaurant is a place I want to visit or not.
The metadata can answer those questions for me.
If there’s metadata attached this restaurant review that I’ve read, that use the hours, gives the payment methods, you know, indicates the location, kind of thing.
I can have that information available to me and get my questions answered without having to, you know, search through you know the full article, or have to figure out on my own.
Because that metadata has really pulled out those key bits of information that are decision criteria that I have.
So that’s that’s one of the things this, you know, just helps people answer questions, helps to make decisions.
And then also, it can be the difference between whether or not they’re successful or not accomplishing a task.
So I need to find out if I’m going to the restaurant how do I make a reservation there, do I need to make a reservation, do it online, or do I have to phone someone or that kind of thing?
In that that little bit of information is the difference between success or failure, because if I show up and the restaurant has no seating available, I’ve completely failed in my in my task.
So there’s SEO benefits.
So it’s findable, more likely by the search engines.
There’s filtering of information, so that people can focus in on the key bits of information that they are what they’re after, linked with that what about things like personalization and making content context aware.
And does it help with with that as well?
It does, yeah, and people are starting to rely more on metadata to provide that.
So there are different ways of doing personalization, and different ways of providing more customization, and it’s a really big topic and metadata is one tool that can be used to support that kind of thing you know.
But just a really simple thing is, just for example, location-based information.
I mean oftentimes we’re looking for something that is near us or something that is accessible to us, or something that is related to our own personal situation in some way, and metadata can basically match which specific content is aligned with the kinds of things that are going to be high priority for us.
So you know, it’s very common to use metadata to indicate location.
And you do that through, basically, you have an address, but the address turn is mapped to, you know, longitude and latitude, and that has the ability to figure out distance, so you know there’s sort of things that can be information, that can be derived from the metadata, that isn’t even explicitly articulated in the metadata.
So if an organization wants to implement a metadata strategy and and make the most from from metadata, in terms of using it, what’s the best way for it to work out what metadata it needs?
Yeah there’s a great question, and it really was the theme of my most recent book on metadata strategy.
So I’ve written two books.
The first one is called metadata basics for web content that I wrote that maybe two years ago.
And then earlier this year, I published the second book: No more silos: Metadata strategy for online publishers, and the idea behind this publishing the books is that I realized that there wasn’t a lot of readily accessible information about metadata for online publishers.
I mean there’s certainly books on metadata that have been published, and you can purchase these things, but most of those books were either aimed at librarians or archivists – people who were you know cataloging things like books, or they were very technical books that were written for computer programmer who was just trying to understand how to manage large volumes of data.
And I kind of recognized that people didn’t really understand how metadata works, and so that’s why I wrote the first book, which is just sort of the nuts and bolts of how metadata works.
And then secondly, I decided that now that some people have read the first book other people would be interested in knowing what can I do with metadata. I understand how it works now, but what’s the deal, where are the real possibilities in using it?
And so that’s kind of the focus of the second book.
So back to your question about you know how do you get a metadata strategy started.
It depends on really first on understanding a bit about how metadata works and looking at what some of the possibilities of using that data are, and then secondly have to kind of take a inventory of what your organization is already doing with metadata.
So most organizations have will be some metadata.
So that they utilize in their online publishing.
Oftentimes, it’s mostly driven by SEO needs.
So if you have someone in your organization is responsible for SEO, hopefully they are adding some metadata to your content.
But metadata it is much much bigger than an SEO.
I mean it’s being used in a variety of applications, but firstly it’s useful just a benchmark where you are right now, what are you doing, you know, how much of your content is subscribe with metadata ,what kinds of metadata are you currently using.
Then maybe look at if it’s right.
For example, through my book, get some ideas about how other organizations are using metadata, and that might give you some ideas about what some of the possibilities are.
Some things that your organization might be interested in doing using metadata.
And then that gives you a sense of like where you are right now and where you might want to go.
And then you can start a process of figuring out all the elements you might need to do to get to where you want to go.
And that’s covering everything from just the organization of how people work together, how people’s understanding ,training needs, obviously, some things around the infrastructure that you have, and what kinds of tools you have available, and mapping all that out.
And that’s kind of how you can start to develop a strategy around that.
And how does it affect the writing process if somebody is creating content well and other stages within the writing process that? How does it have an effect, or how does it affect the the way in which content is written?
It doesn’t directly affect how content is written right away.
So really the idea should be that you should write content that you are writing, and add metadata to that content once you’ve written it, and then the content becomes much more discoverable and more widely available on different platforms and things like that.
So that in the first instance, you don’t have to change anything about your writing in order to use the metadata.
What it may end up doing though is allow you to be a little more focused in what you write you know.
You might have some very routine questions that come up, and you might want to think more about how you can deliver answers to those questions without necessarily creating a long document that someone would have to read through.
So you know some organizations will create a long page of questions and answers.
You may have noticed if you go on a search, and oftentimes you can get the answer right from the search results page, or you know.
We’re getting more and more the ability to ask a voice interface, or something like Alexa, a question and get back an answer.
That sort of ability to get the answer back immediately just by asking the question, with that voicebots and chatbots, and all those sorts of things.
Those sorts of capabilities are getting supported by metadata.
So it may actually remove some of the kind of longer writing that’s being done, and we can figure it into a different kind of content that people are creating to support those sorts of scenarios.
So you mentioned your book, No more silos. Who is the audience for the book? Who would benefit from reading the book? You said there’s books for librarians, in those books for more the programming side of things.
The book is aimed at anyone who is involved in some way with creating, designing or delivering content as part of say web operations.
So typically, we have different kinds of people and different roles who are, you know, creating content and designing content.
It might be UX designers or front-end developers, and obviously SEO people are involved, and there’s some developers who have to support some of the backend tasks with integration.
We have webmasters, all these people are involved with the the management and delivery of web content.
I think all of them can benefit by knowing a bit about how metadata works.
Obviously, no one person is going to know everything about metadata, but it really does, because so many different roles are involved with content.
It does help for different people to sort of see how many data works and what the opportunities of it are, because writers, you know, going back to your question about how does it change writing, you know, one way it could change writing is that it forces you to get very specific about what you’re talking about.
You know, rather than talking about in generalities.
If you’re if you’re talking about very specific, concrete things, that’s something that metadata can be associated with, and questions could be answered.
So that’s an example of how writers can, through the knowledge of metadata, think about how their writing can connect with metadata that might be associated with the writing.
And through that, you actually connect better with the the end users.
There’s also the community that this podcast is, I guess, so most people are from and that’s the technical communication world of writing instructional content.
I would argue that there’s benefits for people are creating printed content, because if you’re using a content management tool, often what you’re doing is you’re writing a tool that can produce online and can produce printed. And as a consequence of that, create printed materials that’s focused for different audiences, filtering out in and out different pieces of information. So arguably where you’re using a single sourcing tool, where an output is its printed material. the metadata has a role to play in the printed world as well as the the online world.
That’s is true. I mean I know that there are, especially say in health communications, there are people who creating materials online and also offline materials, and they need to still use the metadata to manage, you know, the different, you know, specific topics that they’re talking about.
And you know, you can use metadata, for example, to indicate a target audience, or you know the very specific subject matter that you’re talking about, using that information can can help to sort of refine the the exact content that you’re delivering to different people in different contexts.
Now the final third of the book is about tactics and best practice.
I’ve got some questions about that, but beforehand let’s flip it the other way in terms of the common mistakes that people make.
In terms of doing things wrong, what are the common mistakes that people make, either by not using metadata or using metadata in the wrong way?
I think the common mistakes are that people underestimate the possibilities of metadata.
So they tend to think of it as having a very narrow role.
For example, most organizations really think about metadata only in the role of supporting search engine optimization, which it’s obviously a very important role, but it’s just one of many roles.
So that’s a very common mistake.
There is also that the possibility of not thinking through the purposes that you’re you’re trying to support with metadata.
So there are some examples where organizations sort of embark on a metadata programme, and they don’t have a real clearly defined purpose for why they’re doing it.
And this has happened probably most often in some of the nonprofit cultural sector, where they have a lot of material, and they kind of realize that people can’t find this material online, but they really haven’t thought through the very specific use cases of who will be looking for a particular type of, you know, material.
Whatever it is, if it’s photographs, or, you know, information about something historical, or something like that, and they haven’t thought through that clearly enough to really know the exact pieces of metadata that they should prioritize.
Because metadata is a very big topic.
We could, you know, add metadata to all kinds of things, and slice and dice it and make it interesting, but if it’s not being used, it really hasn’t been as successful as it could be.
So the important thing, and I really haven’t mentioned this yet so far, but the important thing about metadata that makes it powerful, is it indicates the relationships between different things.
So you know, just to give you a commercial example, if I have a phone case, you know, I want to know that that phone case is an accessory to a particular model of phone, and the metadata is what is indicating that relationship, you know, that there’s a relationship between the phone and the phone case.
That’s the kind of thing that metadata will surface, even if it’s not exclusively talked about in the content you know.
It can surface that kind of relationship, and help people discover what it is that they’re looking for.
So a lot of the organizations need to do is really figure out what those important relationships that they want to highlight, and their metadata are.
So one thing we haven’t said is what metadata looks like.
That’s a great question.
And it can look like different things.
So there’s some metadata that is audience facing, so you will see it if you are looking at a website, saying, you see, some very clear labels.
And say a table, and it’s indicating alright, this is the model number, this is a price, this is the availability.
That’s all metadata, and you are actually just reading it as though it were text.
I mean there’s some code behind it, but you’re you’re seeing text rendition of what’s behind the code.
Then there’s other metadata that really is not visible to the audience.
You’d have to go into a browser and go into like the developer view and look at the code behind that.
And, as you mentioned, I mean, we basically structure our online content using HTML.
That’s really the way we organize that the content as markup, and metadata somehow will be part of that.
Now there are different ways to do it, and it can look slightly different, in there different markup standards that are used and they are all equally valid.
I mean some of them are more popular than others, for different reasons.
So the metadata itself encode can look different, depending upon how it is implemented, but the beauty is the machines that actually process this are smart enough to, whichever particular way you do it, they’ll understand what it is.
And the reason they’re able to do this, and this is something we haven’t really talked about too much yet, but is that the metadata is following the standards.
And these are standards everyone has agreed to.
There’s going to be a common way to describe information, and the standards really allow the information to connect to other places.
So you, as a publisher, could publish some information about. say a job that you have available. a job opening that you have available. and you will describe it using a particular metadata standard.
There’s a standard called schema.org, which is very very widely used in the web world, and you can describe that job opening and publish this job opening on your website.
Now other parties can take that information from your website, and they can aggregate it with jobs that other employers are offering.
And so it really allows the information you collected from different places and assembled and distributed in different ways.
So the standards allow that.
In terms of what metadata to use, I think there’s four hundred and fifty four, or something like that, different forms of metadata standards within the subsets of schema.org.
Would that be the best place to look, or is it best to roll your own and start completely from scratch with your own set of tags?
No, I would definitely not recommend anyone start with their own set of tags.
That’s going to be that that the path to a lot of anguish I think if you do that.
No, really, the the beauty is because there are standards.
The standards means it’s free to use, and other people have already done a lot of hard work to decide what’s really important bits of information to highlight.
You use those standards, and so if we take schema.org, for example, it’s it’s a big growing standard.
I mean it covers all kinds of things for you know: health information, or automobile recitations or recipes, or you know, you can go on, and it covers quite a lot of things.
Now, in all probability, you as a your organization’s not going to care about a lot of that stuff.
So you will focus.
We publish content about legal services or whatever it is that you publish, and you’ll figure out what part of of that standard is most relevant to the kinds of information that you publish.
The biggest consumer of schema.org is Google.
Google is just one of thousands of consumers of schema.org metadata, but they’re the biggest and best known.
And because they are a large consumer, they have a real interest in trying to promote the use of schema.org.
So they have some very good material on their website, mostly aimed at SEOs, but it explains sort of how one includes information, and how you deal with the code and things like that.
So that’s a really good resource for someone who doesn’t have a lot of knowledge about this just to go look at.
It’s well produced information.
So I would go there first.
Are there any tools that people should be aware of, or can use to make sure that they’re implementing metadata in a consistent way, in the right way?
There’s no one universal tool.
Some of this gets into your setup.
So most people who publish content online are using a content management system, and so it really depends what content management system you’re using, and how it is set up, whether or not you know what degree of support that the content management system offers for including metadata.
So I would look first at what your existing tools are and what they offer, and in some cases as possible as a supplement what’s available, by buying a third-party plug-in that can give you some more capabilities to add metadata at more specific things like that.
So that’s another option to look at, but because everyone’s setups a bit different, you know there’s not really one single that works for everyone.
There’s a lot of open source, you know, tools and libraries available.
They are by nature, because they’re open source, are free.
Some of them have them you know some very strong capabilities, but oftentimes those tools require a fair degree of knowledge already about how many data works, and you know have a certain amount of technical knowledge.
So if you’re you know working in a non-profit, there’s some organization that doesn’t have a big budget, that might be an option to look at.
If you feel like you have the sort of the technical resources to explore that avenue.
In terms of organizations that are doing metadata right, and how to tell whether you and your organization is doing it right, is there any way of judging if you if you’re on top of metadata, and you and have it in pride in the right way?
So there are a number of organizations that I think are doing an excellent job with metadata and I highlight some of them in the book.
But I’ll just sort of go through some examples with you now.
So if we look at commercial organizations, one of the organizations that I mentioned several times in that book is eBay.
eBay is an interesting case to me, because they had a real problem with their metadata.
They realized that people were having a hard time finding products that were for sale on their website, because there’s just a lot of material there, and people had a difficult time specifying what exactly it was that they were looking for.
So they recognized they had a problem, but then they also recognized that it was going to be hard to fix the problem, because they, themselves, didn’t supply all that information.
I mean they rely on their sellers who put products on their platform, to supply a lot of that information.
So they had to really think through how to structure the information, so that it was support customer needs and be clear to, you know, vendors that were putting products on their website, you know, what they needed to do.
So they’d spent a lot of time and trying to sort this out, and they adopted some of these standards that we’ve already been talking about and have made good progress.
I think they still are working through a lot of things because this is a very big website, but they they’ve done that and they’ve even experimented about using the metadata to support other kinds of interactions such as, you know, shopping using a chatbot, something like Facebook Messenger.
They’ve done these sorts of things, so they’re a good example.
Another commercial company that has been working with metadata standards for a long long time is a company called Best Buy, which I guess would be equivalent to say Dixon’s in the UK, or Harvey Norman and in Asia.
But they were one of the first companies to adopt and utilize these standards, and even now I think they’re doing some very interesting work trying to use the standards to support conversational shopping and service, and things like that.
If you look at other kinds of organizations.
So we have government organizations adopting metadata in the EU.
They’ve been quite serious about looking at how metadata can support different needs that they have.
So one example is something called ESCO which is the it has to do with the education skills and competencies ontology, but is basically a way of mapping how skills and in credentials and and jobs are are interrelated.
So they’ve done a really interesting that have worked with that.
So that’s an example there.
And then also I think the the cultural sector and the nonprofit world has done some really interesting work with metadata.
You know one of the real pioneers has been the Getty Museum in Los Angeles.
So they have looked at things, like you have artists.
I mean that’s a very core thing, that you need to identify a piece of work with an artist, but artists are called different things.
They’re called by different names, depending upon what language, or sometimes artists had you know alternate names that they use.
And so there’s a lot of reconciliation that needed to be done just to identify the correct artists that someone was for a painting.
Or another issue that they have addressed through metadata is time periods.
You know what what are the standard ways of describing a time period for a piece of art or geography.
You know place names.
We know through that, through history, places have changed names, and so how do you come up with the appropriate way to describe, you know, an Etruscan village?
Do you use the modern political country name, or do you use a historical name, or that sort of thing?
So those are all examples I think of organizations have done quite interesting things with metadata.
There can be many sets of metadata within an organization.
It can be inconsistent
How is a good good way of keeping everybody using the same the appropriate metadata in the right very consistently?
It can go off the rails, but that generally happens when companies try to implement custom metadata or proprietary metadata.
So they’re trying to, rather than adopt a standard, they’re trying to just create their own system that they think it’s going to work for them.
And then you find that, within organizations, people say, well if they that group can create their own system, we can create our own system as well, and then you find you have these incompatible systems.
And you know the information gets fragmented and it’s not connected together.
If however an organization makes a decision that they want to use standards for their metadata, it drastically reduces the possibility of that happening.
They don’t even have to use the exact same standard.
These standards have mappings between them, so there’s the possibility of having a couple of different standards being used.
You can even integrate the standards where there’s no law saying you have to only use one standard.
Sometimes it’s a little simpler if you find one standard that meets your needs, just to stick with that one standard, but these standards are not in competition with each other.
The standards they’re actually meant to work together, so just making the commitment to adopt the standard reduces so much risk.
I guess the other side is that people just don’t add the metadata to their content, because I think it takes to time too much time.
Yeah if that’s really it is a problem, and there’s a lot of reasons for that.
I mean I think one of the reasons is that people don’t understand what the value of it is, and that’s why I was saying that I think it’s beneficial for people in different roles who are involved some way with web content, to all these different roles to have some understanding better data, because you know there’s a tendency, there’s sort of view metadata is someone else’s problem.
And when that happens, it doesn’t have anyone any owner at all.
Part of it may be that business value of the metadata hasn’t been clearly articulated.
Someone just added some fields and thought would be a good thing to have, just in case, and no one really saw the benefit of it.
And so they just ignore it.
And then there are also some things where that the metadata process wasn’t implemented well, and I see a lot of this so too much burden placed on someone where they don’t have enough sort of supporting information to make the right choice.
I mean they get confused about which information to put in which field, or something like that, because has really done the work of designing it well and testing it to see if it makes sense for people to use.
So there’s a lot of that kind of problem.
And then sometimes the investment is just, you know, the process isn’t is set up in the way that it’s realistic.
So they may have one webmaster who’s expected to do everything by himself or herself, and that person is just overburdened, you know.
So to the extent that one can get the requirements down and understand what you’re trying to achieve, you can design it in a way that’s gonna work for whatever parties need to be involved in the process, and, hopefully, can incorporate some automation.
So one of the things that’s happening now is some tools are getting a little bit smarter, sort of where they can kind of recognize that something is being mentioned in content, and they can suggest that this metadata to be added.
Or sometimes they can automatically add it ,and someone doesn’t even have to manually do it themselves.
If somebody wants to get more information on metadata so they can start to to develop good practice within an organization on using, and creating metadata, and getting the most out of it, in terms of how they can learn more about it, obviously one is your books?
Yeah, I think the as I said the reason I wrote those books is because there really is a dearth of information out there for people who are content creators, or, you know non-technical people.
So I think that’s the first place to start, but that good news is that the books themselves have a lot of references to do other materials.
So I have a list a lot of websites and articles and things like that, which will give you more things that one can look at again.
I wouldn’t expect anyone to be an expert on all the material I cover in the book, but one will look at what’s in the book and say you know that’s the area I’m most interested in.
And once you start knowing some of the names of standards or names of, you know, examples of companies that are doing something, you can go to search engines and see what else is available on that.
And sometimes there’s some interesting video tutorials on YouTube and things like that.
Now you’re also on Twitter, and you do publish or you tweet links to some very interesting articles and stuff on your blog as well, so it probably makes sense to, and you have a slightly unusual Twitter handle, in this spell out your name.
So right yeah, I’m on Twitter as @storyneedle, and that’s also the name of my blog.
It’s two words my in the case of my blog, the name of it, but it’s one word in the Twitter handle.
And yeah I do try to share things that I come across, because I am genuinely excited by this.
I discover something new almost every day relating to metadata where people are working on something new that I didn’t know about, and I just like sharing it.
So you know some of the stuff may be a little more advanced than people are interested in getting into right away, but I just try to share things both of general interests and more specific interests, as and when I come across them.
Well thank you.
I mean it’s it’s good to finally speak to you, rather than just do it through the medium of the web.
It is, it is, yeah, I agree.
And I appreciate you you know reaching out and asking me to to join you for this.